So after the whole first half of the book-- well, wait a minute, Dr. Stang. He's talking about kind of psychedelic wine. The Wanderer | Old English Poetry Project | Rutgers University All right, so now, let's follow up with Dionysus, but let's see here. In my previous posts on the continuity hypothesis . So let's start with one that is more contemporary. But it's not an ingested psychedelic. This two-part discussion between Muraresku and Dr. Plotkin examines the role psychedelics have played in the development of Western civilization. And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm asked this question, I would say, in pretty much every interview I've done since late September. CHARLES STANG: OK. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. And I hear-- I sense that narrative in your book. He comes to this research with a full suite of scholarly skills, including a deep knowledge of Greek and Latin as well as facility in a number of European languages, which became crucial for uncovering some rather obscure research in Catalan, and also for sweet-talking the gatekeepers of archives and archaeological sites. The Tim Ferriss Show - #535: General Stanley McChrystal Mast The altar had been sitting in a museum in Israel since the 1960s and just hadn't been tested. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. Those religions featured psychedelic beer and ceremonies lead by women . But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . Now, that is part of your kind of interest in democratizing mysticism, but it also, curiously, cuts out the very people who have been preserving this tradition for centuries, namely, on your own account, this sort of invisible or barely visible lineage of women. What does it mean to die before dying? According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? And Hofmann famously discovers-- or synthesizes LSD from ergot in 1938. Wonderful, well, thank you. The Tim Ferriss Show | iHeart 8th century BC from the Tel Arad shrine. Maybe there's some residual fear that's been built up in me. The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name And she talks about kind of being born again, another promise from John's gospel. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. And we know from the record that [SPEAKING GREEK] is described as being so crowded with gods that they were easier to find than men. Brian is the author of a remarkable new book that has garnered a lot of attention and has sold a great many copies. So I spent 12 years looking for that data, eventually found it, of all places, in Catalonia in Spain in this 635-page monograph that was published in 2002 and for one reason or another-- probably because it was written in Catalan-- was not widely reported to the academic community and went largely ignored. But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. I expect there will be. Now that the pagan continuity hypothesis is defended, the next task is to show that the pagan and proto-Christian ritual sacraments were, in fact, psychedelicbrews. I'm happy to argue about that. And Brian, once again, thank you so much. So psychedelics or not, I think it's the cultivation of that experience, which is the actual key. In the first half, we'll cover topics ranging from the Eleusinian Mysteries, early Christianity, and the pagan continuity hypothesis to the work of philosopher and psychologist William James. And I'll just list them out quickly. And what, if any, was the relationship between those ancient Greeks and the real religion of the earliest Christians, who might call the paleo-Christians. So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. And I think we're getting there. Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? And there were gaps as well. To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. So first of all, please tell us how it is you came to pursue this research to write this book, and highlight briefly what you think are its principal conclusions and their significance for our present and future. And I want to say to those who are still assembled here that I'm terribly sorry that we can't get to all your questions. CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. So it is already happening. This an absolute masterclass on why you must know your identity and goals before forming a habit, what the best systems are for habit. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. I am so fortunate to have been selected to present my thesis, "Mythology and Psychedelics: Taking the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis a Step Further" at. So your presentation of early Christianity inclines heavily toward the Greek world. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and improving But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. They are guaranteed an afterlife. That there is no hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data for spiked beer, spiked wine. For me, that's a question, and it will yield more questions. I think the wine certainly does. So I think this was a minority of early Christians. After the first few chapters the author bogs down flogging the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and exulting over his discovery of small scraps of evidence he found in a decade of research. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries I've no doubt that Brian has unearthed and collected a remarkable body of evidence, but evidence of what, exactly? And I think oversight also comes in handy within organized religion. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More by The Tim Ferriss Show I might forward the proposition that I don't think the early church fathers were the best botanists. And again, it survives, I think, because of that state support for the better part of 2,000 years. Now, it's just an early indication and there's more testing to be done. I mean, something of symbolic significance, something monumental. So there's lots of interesting details here that filter through. I mean, so it was Greek. It draws attention to this material. The long and short of it is, in 1978 there was no hard scientific data to prove this one way or the other. And in his book [? I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. And considering the common background of modern religions (the Pagan Continuity hypothesis), any religious group who thinks they are chosen or correct are promoting a simplistic and ignorant view of our past. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. In this episode, Brian C. Muraresku, who holds a degree from Brown University in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit,  joins Breht to discuss his fascinating book "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", a groundbreaking dive into the use of hallucinogens in ancient Greece, the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, the role of the Eucharist in early Christianity, the . I'm not. All that will be announced through our mailing list. Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. He dared to ask this very question before the hypothesis that this Eleusinian sacrament was indeed a psychedelic, and am I right that it was Ruck's hypothesis that set you down this path all those many years ago at Brown? An Exploration of Religion: An Interview with Brian Muraresku So let's talk about the future of religion, and specifically the future of Roman Catholicism. And so in the epilogue, I say we simply do not know the relationship between this site in Spain and Eleusis, nor do we know what was happening at-- it doesn't automatically mean that Eleusis was a psychedelic rite. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. So at the very-- after the first half of the book is over, there's an epilogue, and I say, OK, here's the evidence. I know that's another loaded phrase. So you were unable to test the vessels on site in Eleusis, which is what led you to, if I have this argument right, to Greek colonies around the Mediterranean. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. So this whole water to wine thing was out there. What was discovered, as far as I can tell, from your treatment of it, is essentially an ancient pharmacy in this house. There's a moment in the book where you are excited about some hard evidence. CHARLES STANG: OK. And that's a question equally for ancient historians and for contemporary seekers and/or good Catholics. She had the strange sense that every moment was an eternity of its own. I would have been happy to find a spiked wine anywhere. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. If your history is even remotely correct, that would have ushered in a very different church, if Valentinus's own student Marcus and the Marcosians were involved in psychedelic rituals, then that was an early road not taken, let's say. And my favorite line of the book is, "The lawyer in me won't sleep until that one chalice, that one container, that one vessel comes to light in an unquestionable Christian context.". Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving So if you were a mystic and you were into Demeter and Persephone and Dionysus and you were into these strange Greek mystery cults, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better place to spend your time than [SPEAKING GREEK], southern Italy, which in some cases was more Greek than Greek. Here's your Western Eleusis. Where you find the grain, you may have found ergot. But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. So Pompeii and its environs at the time were called [SPEAKING GREEK], which means great Greece. They're mixing potions. Just imagine, I have to live with me. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to. So let's start, then, the first act. But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. And what we find at this farmhouse is a sanctuary that Enriqueta Pons herself, the archaeologist who's been on site since 1990, she calls it some kind of sanctuary dedicated to the goddesses of the mysteries. Psychedelics Today: PTSF 35 (with Brian Muraresku) Griffithsfund.org There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . And to be quite honest, I'd never studied the ancient Greeks in Spain. Interesting. So we move now into ancient history, but solidly into the historical record, however uneven that historical record is. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biolo. But I think the broader question of what's the reception to this among explicitly religious folk and religious leaders? I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. Because at my heart, I still consider myself a good Catholic boy. CHARLES STANG: So in some sense, you're feeling almost envy for the experiences on psychedelics, which is to say you've never experienced the indwelling of Christ or the immediate knowledge of your immortality in the sacrament. In fact, he found beer, wine, and mead all mixed together in a couple of different places. We see lots of descriptions of this in the mystical literature with which you're very familiar. Up until that point I really had very little knowledge of psychedelics, personal or literary or otherwise. It seems to me, though, that the intensity and the potency of the psychedelic experience is of an order of magnitude different than what I may have experienced through the Eucharist. Mona Sobhani, PhD (@monasobhaniphd) / Twitter That event is already up on our website and open for registration. What's the importance of your abstention from psychedelics, given what is obvious interest. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . We call it ego dissolution, things of that nature. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. "The Jews" are not after Ye. BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. What the Greeks were actually saying there is that it was barley infected with ergot, which is this natural fungus that infects cereal crops. An actual spiked wine. I'd never thought before about how Christianity developed as an organized religion in the centuries after Jesus' murder. The (Mistaken) Conspiracy Theory: In the Late Middle Ages, religious elites created a new, and mistaken, intellectual framework out of Christian heresy and theology concerning demons. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact." I'm happy to be proven wrong. We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? And then was, in some sense, the norm, the original Eucharist, and that it was then suppressed by orthodox, institutional Christianity, who persecuted, especially the women who were the caretakers of this tradition. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. The kind of mysticism I've always been attracted to, like the rule of Saint Benedict and the Trappist monks and the Cistercian monks. So I think it's really interesting details here worth following up on. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. These mysteries had at their center a sacrament called kykeon, which offered a vision of the mysteries of life and death. Here's another one. Now, I think you answered that last part. 101. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. And I-- in my profession, we call this circumstantial, and I get it. Pagan Continuity and Christian Attitudes: When did Paganism End? And so I don't know what a really authentic, a really historic-looking ritual that is equal parts sacred, but also, again, medically sound, scientifically rigorous, would look like. A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. All episodes of The Tim Ferriss Show - Chartable Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). CHARLES STANG: OK. "The Tim Ferriss Show" 646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion 3 days ago Plants of the Gods: S4E1.