108 vs 110 lobe separation 108 vs 110 lobe separation

Post Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by, http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html, http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter haft/3.htm, Webcam 86A 108LC w/1.5 vs 86B 112LC w/1.3s. This may be of concern if you have vacuum assisted accessories, such as power brakes or steering. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. such as 290 @.050? Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. The higher the compression and the higher you try and rev it, the more it will like a wider lobe center. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . How do the lobe separations change when you factor in turbocharging? Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. Another important measurement was the torque production at 4,000 rpm and this cam checked in with 484 lb-ft of torque. Compression willl be 9.75:1. LS Exhaust Manifold Bolt Torque (Everything You Need To Know), Holley Power Valve Sizes: Everything There is to Know. Methods: We evaluated 30 individuals with PD (62.47.2 years) and 22 age-matched healthy controls (61.06.4 years). 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. 554"/577" lift. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. [img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h291/downsideup09/DSCF2616-1.jpg[/img], [img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5928_111214857139_110806152139_2127222_6826389_n.jpg[/img]. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. 108: 110: 112: 114 . The introduction of Lunati'snew Bootleggerhydraulic series - with its wicked 108-degree lobe-separation angle, fast opening profile and plenty of area under the lift curve - will serve only to fuel the flames on this heated bench-racing topic. Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. But it also has a lot of lobe separation. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. Another related thought to consider when selecting a cam is inches of vacuum for your engine application when deciding upon a Lobe Center. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post Now lets move to the exhaust. Idle quality was rough and the vacuum gauge showed only 9.8 in-Hg (inches of mercury). Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. . Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. But i would nt go any wider than 110. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. So, this LSA is suitable for your engine and its components. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post Ultimately, it makes the 110 LSA an oil-consuming LSA. The lobe separation angle in a natural car engine conveys a considerable impact, especially regarding the maximum torque. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. So, which is better? ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes, says Eric Bolander of Erson Cams. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. But there is a drawback of higher cylinder pressure: higher cylinder pressure may sometimes lead to piston or piston ring problems. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. However, in application, there is a lot more to consider. 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. All rights reserved. Do you know what the best lobe separation angle for your car engine is? 106 LSA: So, if I talk about the powerband at 106 LSA, the powerband is narrow. Overlap is the amount of time that both valves are open in the same cylinder. = Moderate 108-106 Deg. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Your email address will not be published. Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. Frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE), the second most common focal epilepsy syndrome after temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE), is frequently drug-resistant and MRI-negative. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. 108 versus 110 will drive the power band down. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. Bad idea in my view. A commonly held misconception is that intake/exhaust overlap contributes to lower cranking compression. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. Because during the lower units oil change, you can go through the issue that the lower plug, Read More Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything]Continue, Among the crucial parts of a vehicle ignition system is the ignition coil, also called a spark coil. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. 112-110 Deg. O onovakind67 Registered Joined Dec 14, 2001 6,242 Posts You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. Good luck. On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. 04 Minor modifications to the factory windage tray were necessary to work with the new stroker assembly. If the overlap phase occurs too early, it will create an overly rich condition in the exhaust port, severely decreasing the gas mileage. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post What happens when you change ONLY. For any additional clarification or questions please contact our Tech Line at 714 523-0530. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s. According to the Motortrend, LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) is a wonderful approximation of the operation of the engine because it takes into account the relative time of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) and the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) concerning each other.Above mentioned sequential activities allow LSA to be an accurate representation of the operation of the engine. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. indeed, expect low vacuum with anything lower than 110-ish. 1-3 Cognitive impairment is common in both FLE and TLE and adversely impacts quality of life and psychosocial functioning. The center of those 2 events is the LOBE CENTERLINE (ECL). As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. I know a little about cams. It will sound lovely I'm sure. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) probably just enough to get me in trouble.. ALL bolts are ARP. A mobile functional near-infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS) was used to record cerebral oxygenation signals in the left prefrontal cortex (LPFC), right prefrontal cortex (RPFC), left parietal lobe (LPL), and right parietal lobe (RPL) and analyze the EC of the cerebral cortex. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. The 120-degree cam minimized torque production through most of the curve, while the 112-degree cam offered more torque but slightly less peak power. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post 238/248 duration, 300/310 adv. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. If all the specs remained the same what will going from a 110 to a 112 lsa do to driving characteristics? That way you can discuss what you want from the engine and how changes in LSA or any of the other specs will affect how the engine performs. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. If you take any of the . Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. A narrow, more specific power band is also a product of a narrow LSA, as is a lumpy idle qualityoften referred to as the 106 sound. Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). 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The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. so the power will come on a litter sooner with the 114, and fall off a little sooner? 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. The same is true for intake valve closing. Getting back to the sound of an engine, its no secret that a raucous, lumpy idle is often preferred by street cruisers, regardless of the ill manners and inefficiency of such an engine setup. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. As a result, a wider valve opening system with no overlapping allows more oil to fall through the oil inlet. So, sit tight back and explore. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. I think you are asking a lot of a cam . Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. Next up was the 112-degree cam, which actually lost out in peak power slightly to the 120-degree cam, but offered considerably more torque. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. Our content is merely suggestive, not intended to use without proper safety precautions and advice. You are using an out of date browser. I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. But, you may wonder knowing that a higher valve clearance rate reduces the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. L'auteur prsente une nouvelle contribution de floristique nord-africaine consacre la flore du massif du Rif et des rgions du nord du Maroc, dans le cadre gographique prdfini par le Catalogue des Plantes vasculaires du Nord du Maroc de Valds et al. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? I bet you won't see a bit of difference.